Interview Series with Designers — Lisa

[originally posted Dec 20, 2016 via medium - then a pay wall went up…]

Lisa O’Malley is a freelance user experience expert and designer for Inuit. She has been part of my social network for several years now and if you meet her, it becomes clear quickly why the content and experiences she creates make users feel understood, and therefore supported in their tasks.

Lisa O’Malley — designing experiences that get you to the end goal

JL: Lisa, I reached out to you, because you have several years of work in the creative industry under the belt. Also, you work at one of the few design-driven companies in town — at Intuit. And your role is different from what some typically associate with design or creative work. Tell me about your line of work, please.

LO’M: My professional role is “technically editor”. That’s what I have been doing for the past 24 years and went to college for and have two degrees in. But as the web has evolved, since 1997, my role actually leaks into online experience rather than just pure writing. It’s not just about the words. It’s about the whole experience. It helps people move through different concepts of content whether it is all about words, pictures or video. I see it as a “user experience role”.

JL: What is the job title that you would give yourself here?

LO’M: A lot of people call it “user experience expert” or “experience expert” or a lot of people have been using “content designer” lately which doesn’t really get to the whole experience. If you narrow it down just to content — everything is content! But you have roles as “interaction designer”, “visual designer”, then “content designer”. There is also the broader piece of experience, which encompasses all of that. That might not be the title, but that is what I actually do.

JL: So you are clearly more than a content designer. What do you design?

LO’M: Let me talk about my current job. They call it refactoring a website. It’s switching the internal Intuit website from one platform to another. What they don’t want to do, is a simply copy paste, because it is not very good. They had about 400 people who had access to this internal website. So you have different experiences that are designed, different voice and tone. It just does not create a cohesive experience. When I was hired originally, they said, “You are going to do just content!”. This is what I hear every time when I am hired. When they bring me on board and when I start asking questions, they quickly discover: “Okay, we have to do the whole IA (information architecture). We have to think about navigation and assets that we have, that we can use, and assets that we don’t use. How do we set up an online maintenance program?” So currently I am moving the old platform to the new platform for the human resources area of Intuit — while I am also redoing the IA, which took card sorts research, I had to lead that and really look at traffic analysis and see what people are clicking on or not. All of that fun analytics stuff that you get from internal websites. That does not mean that I don’t do content. There is a tremendous amount of content that I have to rewrite and work with subject matter experts. But that is the big picture of what I am doing.

JL: What is the proportion of each of these tasks in your work?

LO’M: I would say the navigation piece is about 15–25%, then pure content writing is anywhere between 65–75%, and whatever is left is working with the experience owners or subject matter experts and thinking through: What are you trying to accomplish? What do they want from their experience and what is their strategy behind it? The IA should always be done ideally up front but I am finding while we have been already working on the content for three months, we then start working on the IA.

JL: Ideally rethinking the IA happens up front and in reality it often does not. In your work, there seems to be a fair amount of client education. People have a clearer concepts of other jobs, such as a dentist, and they face few surprises. Here, however, they walk in with you to “redo the content” and then what?

LO’M: A lot of people don’t really understand UX (user experience). And you actually have to start from the very beginning and tell them, “Here is what I can help you with. Here is what you can anticipate as outcomes.” I have encountered a lot of fear, because it is unknown. These are people that have driven their programs, like HR programs, owned them and have really written their own content as long as they remember. So to have somebody who is supposed be the expert come in and require such change- that can be intimidating for a lot of people. Yet it shouldn’t be. I try to make them feel comfortable. It is not a scary place to be in. I say often “You can help me make it better. You know the content better and your people better than I do and I just have data and my core skill set. Let’s merge them together and create a good experience.” And once they kind of hear that, it is the education piece. For some people it takes one meeting and for other people it takes three or four meetings to really understand what it is.

JL: I am learning from you as we speak. In all this though, how do you define design?

LOM: I think my definition of design today is different than what it was ten years ago. I used to think design was how things looked. Interaction design is honestly relatively new within the online experience, whether it is online, on your desktop or mobile phone. It is a whatever that is. So my definition of design has really expanded to include basically anything you interact with — that’s design. It has been designed, it has been tested, hopefully, it has been thought through by the experts, who know what they are doing, and who have thought through how you would get to those end goals that are set for projects. Or even for physical objects: what is that strategy? What do we want that end game to be? The design is all about getting to that end game.

JL: It strikes me how your view of design has shifted from a rather visual focus to a focus on what is man-made including the intention behind it for people to cycle through.

LOM: Everything is a craft. This napkin holder here — that has been designed! What is the color? How do we get the napkins out one by one? It’s all been thought through as to what do we want people to do with this specific object. It doesn’t matter if it is an online experience or a mobile app. More often than not, things tend to be designed very poorly but they are still designed.

JL: Yes, there is an author behind every thing or experience. And their decisions impact our day to day greatly. Now let’s move on from definitions to the process of what you do. What is a typical task or challenge you encounter — say, beyond writing content.

LOM: A lot of visual designers may have learnt that people have definite opinions about your work — this is maybe not be the case for interaction designers. And when it comes to words and as so many people write, people have an opinion about it. If you are in an office environment, you pretty much write every day. Whether it is email, or say doctors writing charts. So people think they can write. I have encountered it so many times. You have to learn to take a deep breath, and go “Okay, I hear you. I understand your contributions. Let me take a stab at it. Let’s come to an agreement.” It took a while before I achieved that kind of Zen mode. I tell myself, “Don’t take it personally. This is where people are just expressing their opinion and where the content is obviously near and dear to their hearts.” So I ask myself, “How do I want people through the process of getting them where I want them to get without forcing their hand?” Because a lot of times, writers are kind of at the bottom of the UX totem pole. And — that’s a whole other side subject— I wonder if it is because most writers are introverts or if it is a function of how UX has been set up in the past 20 years. But it takes a lot of building trust to get people to really understand that you are there to help them and to make things better. They physically need to see it as in “Show me how you can make things better.”

JL: A voice is a very delicate thing to alter, change and draw attention to.

LOM: Absolutely! What I have found that helps, such as in my current project, is using the Intuit corporate voice and tone which has been established by the corporate communications people. And I’ve worked very closely with them to develop the kind of guidelines of how to talk to Intuit employees. Now having that in my back pocket when people say, “Oh, so we are HR, and we really need to be kind of proper!”, which is almost robotic, and legalese about things, I say “Actually, no we don’t, because we can use the Intuit voice and tone. These are our friends, these are our coworkers, we see each other as family. You wouldn’t talk to your family like a legal person. That doesn’t make any sense.”

JL: You are really putting a little more humanness into it and more softness, to allow for people to share more.

LOM: And that’s the big challenge for me. Getting people to understand that for some reason - and I don’t know quite why it is - that when they speak, it’s very conversational of course, but when they write, they switch to this very proper mode of writing. And I am not sure what that disconnect is. Whether that’s because they see their physical words in front of them, so they think they have to be more formal than what they need to be. But that’s my biggest challenge, having them break that cycle, telling them “That it’s not Shakespeare. This is not rocket science. You are talking to your family. So let’s talk to our family.”

JL: Your point is well taken. I am reminded of Donald Norman’s writing. He writes about complex topics, yet manages to be almost conversational as if he was talking to the reader in that moment.

LOM: Yes!

JL: What difference does gender make in it all?

LOM: That’s a loaded question, isn’t it?

JL: I don’t know, it might be. Unload it for me, please.

LOM: Early in my experience I saw the typical kind of art director agency guy with the black t-shirt on who has the super hip glasses. It is this stereotype. And you don’t see a lot of women in those positions. It’s my experience that they are very far and in between. But when it gets down to the work that you need to do, there are a lot of women in content. That’s slowly changing. I am seeing more and more men kind of looped into content but content is communication. It always has been a very traditionally kind of female field. I am not quite sure why — if that’s playing to the feminine stereotype of women being better at communicating — or were those just the jobs that were available? But it kind of reminds me of software programming, where the first software programmers were women. A woman wrote the code to get the Apollo rocket to the moon, like in that movie Hidden Figures. All the sudden programming became brogramming and you have a bunch of guys involved. That would be an interesting study on the evolution of gender roles and how they shift within the environment. For content, it’s mostly been women, but lately I have noticed a share of 75% women and 25% men, which is actually quite a big leap from what it used to be. Designers tend to be mostly men. I don’t know why. I see very few women designers. I’ve worked with only one interaction designer who was female, and that was a complete surprise to me. I think women are very good at that conceptual type of thinking and experiences; it comes naturally to them. I don’t know if that’s a function of the education system and how it is sold to people or if its the Silicon Valley Syndrome, because Silicon Valley has obviously a gender problem. You know, look at the number of CEOs and the number of leaders; women are few and far in between. One of the most prominent CEOs in the recent times, Marissa Mayer, she did not fare well, so a lot of people think that if one woman fails, it’s like you have to have 10 fantastic ones to make up for it yet if I a man fails…

JL: So you’ve been describing the distribution and the structure of gender in the field of content, creative, communication as well as design. What difference does it make in problem solving, or in the dynamics and process of the work?

LOM: That’s actually interesting. It is stereotypical to say yet largely true that women tend to be more of a negotiator to come to a resolution that pleases everyone. And I’ve noticed that a lot of men tend to really fight hard for whatever they are producing such as in content design. It could be completely different, but this is what I have seen that a lot of women are much more willing to collaborate and to make some adjustments whereas men tend to be a little less willing to do that. Is that an ego thing? I don’t know. I have no idea if this is just my pure observation. Men seem to fight things harder. Maybe women need to fight harder?

JL: Let us be clear that I have been asking you to dish out stereotypes clarifying that you may or may not fully subscribe to them. In a way, it is a catch 22, to either talk about gender in a stereotypical way, thereby solidifying the narrative, or to stay silent and miss the opportunity to change the narrative. Yet I believe the benefits outweigh the costs. The intention is to dig a little deeper. For instance, you just described that women are more prone to negotiate, while men tend to plough through, and are assertive.

LOM: Exactly. Even if men are wrong and obviously not on the right path, and they may not know that they are wrong, they plough through nevertheless.

JL: You mean by default?

LOM: It’s by default. They act as if this is the way they need to do it. And more often than not, they get their way, if they have that compelling argument. It also seems like that extreme — i would not even call it passion — but it is this drive to -

JL: It’s an energy.

LOM: Yeah, it’s an energy, like “This is exactly what we are doing. This is the path we are going on!” rather than taking a step back and going “Is this the right thing to do?”. I’ve also seen some women fight really hard for what they believe in and some men be completely collaborative, but those are the exceptions.

JL: I can see your point and recognise these patterns. Are there any other stereotypes that come to mind about men, women, and gender in general? Maybe something you’ve heard people say.

LOM: Interestingly, there are very few UX leaders that I’ve seen, and I am talking director or VP level. If a woman has a really strong opinion, and a direction where she wants to go, she is unreasonable and very hard to work with. But if a man had that exact same attitude, he is a leader. And that is definitely seen in the business world. And I think that goes back to — the U.S. is still kind of an inherent world of role- and gender-playing. It goes back to that. Silicon Valley is a microcosm of that world as well. And I don’t know how many stories I’ve seen about the gender problem in Silicon Valley, but nobody is actually willing to step up and do something about it. With the exception of women coders and women in engineering. There seems to be a movement in that, but no one seems to be doing that in UX.

JL: Really. So the field of design seems to be a little more conform than the field of engineering? Let me recapture. So you see women acting rational, and conformist while men can be quite emotional? That’s interestingly clashing with the stereotype of women being more emotional. You also say that women are more likely to get penalised compared to men, who for the same kind of behavior, are then regarded as leaders?

LOM: Not necessarily penalised yet it is rather the case that they are not taken as seriously.

JL: You are saying it is more subtle?

LOM: Very subtle. If a woman is seen as an effective, good leader, it is because she has some inherent woman qualities like collaboration, having that softness. But as soon as a woman in charge of anything and has anything but those soft edges like a lot of men can have, then suddenly it is not a good thing, it is not seen as positively.

JL: I’ve gathered good food for thought here to reflect on further. Where do you see some easy solutions?

LOM: I love the whole effort about women engineers and coders and that they are involved. And I think it would be great, if they did the same for UX and grow this next generation of women who are deciding to go into the UX field. The need to grow them as leaders, redefine what it means to be a leader — not just from a feminine standpoint — but from a masculine as well. To ask, ”What does it really take to be a great leader?” That is really shifting Silicon Valley, turning it on its head. Because what makes a great leader there, doesn’t mean what’s right.

JL: It sounds like a trade-off — to pick between what is right and what is working right now? And your suggestion is to emulate what women coders have achieved in their field.

LOM: Absolutely. There are lots of special events all about women who code. Just follow #womenwhocode.

JL: Why might it be easier in coding? Perhaps because design is the new thing that is owned primarily by men right now?

LOM: I am not sure if it’s because there are just more coders versus designers, because that usually tends to be the model that you have five coders for every designer. I am not quite sure why they haven’t quite approached that.

JL: One last question. What do you want to share with people who are struggling in the creative field or who resonate with your narrative. What have you learned?

LOM: Find someone that you really like. How do they operate day to day? How do they handle tough situations and difficult conversations? Find someone like that and make them your mentor. Ask them and learn from them. Because you need someone to talk problems out with. That is super important from a career standpoint. It doesn’t have to be someone within your company. It can be from a completely different field. It is really all about the mindset, how you face problems, how you deal with solutions, how you work with people when things get wrong.

JL: You are suggesting someone to process with on a meta level?

LOM: Yes, find a leader or make a leader. Not everybody’s style has to be the same. That’s one of the frustrating things that I hear, “Women need to be this..”, or “Women need to do that…”. Basically, they are saying women need to act like men. Sure, there is some women whose leadership style matches men, but it is not as blank. It’s separate.

JL: So it is not that black and white. Rather grey in between.

LOM: Exactly. It is a rainbow. Find someone whose style matches yours. If you see someone go through a challenging problem, and you feel like “That makes me uncomfortable. I don’t like how he talks to that person, how the issues is resolved, that’s not the person for you.” But if you find yourself constantly drawn to that person because of how they handle the situations then that’s the person for you.

JL: Perfect! I love it. Now let’s turn to the beautiful croissants and coffee in front of us.

Lisa was incredibly easy to talk with and open about her journey from content editing to the advanced role of an online experience strategist.

First off, I noticed how how carefully, and yet courageously she employed language in our conversation. She made strong statements, yet also questioned her opinion and seemed to search for good and then better ways of saying things. As a word artist, she allowed me to witness her verbal sketching, and you can follow the linear account above.

Secondly, Lisa seems to have navigated a respectable career and yet remains notable humble, and down to earth about it. She works for one of San Diego’s top software companies, shapes the experience that thousands of employees and customers are interfacing with, and created a job situation with an impressive work-life balance. What an accomplishment, and what little noise she makes about it.

Thirdly, female coders have laid out a path that can inspire women in design. This solution may not work for female designers as well, yet it can inspire to keep searching for avenues. What does a typical female designer look like? Do you talk and share on social media about them? And what qualities would these leaders have?

Lastly, Lisa laid out how man can be fairly persistent in pushing their approach through while women can tend to step back, and negotiate more. Interestingly, this makes men appear more emotionally in business and women overtly more rationally. Which clashes with the stereotype that women are more emotional.

This reminds me of a phenomenon that I still try to pin point better: I see a fair amount of women compromise at work but once they enter their private and social life, they become loud, domineering and make up for it. It’s the idea of “when you feel out of control, you try to control” (what you can). Possibly, we can urge men to make more space at work for their female counterparts and allow for their strength, input, and vision. And consequently, we can therefore allow men to take charge more at home.

Most likely, you disagree with some of my ideas, however, the bottom line is that we have to strive to be more inclusive, reflected and try better.

Lisa makes also food applications — as in beauty care. https://www.pinterest.com/lisaoatpinterest/diy-nation/